YESTERDAY, I'll Heard "The BEATLES" on RAIN WEBSITE: EXCELLENT IDEA; YESTERDAY VAN DEN HAGUE INTERNATIONAL COURT, president, MRS. Higgins- some physician fiind out higgs-bosons -called "GOD's particle"for Serpent's Island; ROMANIA SENT A MAP; UKRAINE SENT ANOTHER; I WACH THOSE MAPS, BECAUSE "On n'a rien compris- students dans francaise en ZAIR's Schools"; I take COURT'S MAPS: like mathematician, was easy to observe, wrong bi-sectors of an angle; In adition MOLDAVIA of the KING STEPHEN the BIG and SAINT-47 VICTORIES AGAINST TURKISH EMPIRE- 47 CHURCHES and MONASTERIES built in HONOR AND GOD's GLORY for those VITORIES; I'm a DIRECT (DC) PERSSON: AFTER THE VERDICT OF DEN HAGUE INTERNATINAL COURT: "On n'a rien compris", but, know the ISLAND -A SMALL ROCK, WITHOUT IMPORTANCE, WHERE THE PEOPLES OF ILLE DES SERPENT PRESERVE JUST LONG RANGE NOOK MISSILES AND WHAT A FARMER HAVE DROP IN THE BARN- STAY FACE BY FACE WITH USA ARMY DISLOCATED ON THE COAST OF THE BLACK SEA and because, now, the Ille des Serpent c'est Divisee, two OF MOST DANGEROUSS ARMIES WILL STAY EACH DAY TO PATROL SIDE BY SIDE; MAYBE, IF THEY MADE A PIDJIN LANGUAGE- will cooperate in night poker games, some drinking-CONTESTS, SHOOT AT THE TARGET WITH DIFFERENT WEAPPONS, HIT THE TARGET WITH THE KNIVES, Bals, SPORTS and news; Hi, SCI- FI, AWESOME;s CALLED YOU; HI SCI-FI;DO YOU LIKE STARGATE OR STARGATE ATLANTIS or maybe FARSCAPE - SATURN AWARDED ; YES, KIND SATURN; MANY PLANETS HAVE RINGS; ORGANIZE WEDDINGS THERE: HEBREWS REVENGE AFTER 5000 years UPON EGIPTIANS () 7 days WAR, in 1957 Hai! Thanks for interests, not in all cases I could look up for your materials; some axiomatic math theory build you know, you reffer all rhe time to definition of WIKI; WIKI has classic and newer; newer's not "true with necessiry", as you claims; constuctivism is a method and is your buisenrss if you preffered or not; Most imporatant: 1 ) exist maby branches build without an axiomatic system; 2 ) Reality is shown by physics; 3) Math model is are elected by physical relevance; 4) You did 'n 't remember postulate or experimental relevance or predictions; 5 ) I conclude you wanna waist my time, repeating WIKI definition; 6 ) I did 'n; t knew about you to wrote something; 7 ) You did'n't mention GERMAN or FRENCH mathematicians Remark: For many Years Maths School, Physic School from Romania, IT -School, have just three competitors: a ) USA, RUSSIA, CHINA b ) Israel have a different MATH, PHYS, IT values, you was unable to verify the HOLY BIBLE with "modern" Sciences, like ME, for instance c ) My book is your shok wave, and I'm your nightmare in another nightmare; d) Check your rank in sciences, in the world e) because your arogance (unjustify- cause you was GOD's people, in the past, but know you are nothing but FASCIST comitting GENOCIDS, after you KILLED the SON of GOD, you are no more GID's people) ; f ) HITLER's not dead, is your ANTICHRIST; since know you are not even jewgarbage, you are JEW-FASCIST GARBAGE; I recignize your iritation, when you about GERMAN Mathematicians; g ) Your proud precede your fail; h ) What do you INVENT ? Words? Talmoud ! Succsess in the bottom of HELL, JUDAS MESSIAH VERYSIGN, AWESOME „STEEL GUARDS” COMMANDER On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 3:23 PM, sci.logic group wrote: sci.logic http: / / groups. google. com/ group/ sci. logic? hl=en Today's most active topics: * The modern mathematical concept of infinity is ... - 15 new http: / / groups. google. com/ group/ sci. logic/ t/ bda172b132efb331? hl=en * axiom of cardinality in boolean algebra? - 13 new http: / / groups. google. com/ group/ sci. logic/ t/ 83dfcf92add54204? hl=en * Modal logic: a simple question - 10 new http: / / groups. google. com/ group/ sci. logic/ t/ 8739254141ee38c0? hl=en * #209 Chapter 7, All Possible Digit Arrangements builds the Reals and Naturals, better than Peano and Dedekind; new book 2nd edition: New True Mathematics - 8 new http: / / groups. google. com/ group/ sci. logic/ t/ 1a77ed0bacf596b6? hl=en * What is this property of relations called? - 8 new http: / / groups. google. com/ group/ sci. logic/ t/ 37267d81361a8538? hl=en Active Topics ------------- What is this property of relations called? - 8 new -------------------- -------------------- ---------- ...Should anyone be interested, this thread has turned into a discussion of certain definitions in the first few pages of Jean-Louis Krivine (translated by David Miller) _Introduction to Axiomatic Set Theory_ Reidel, 1971. It is reviewed by Azriel Levy in JSL, 39(1), 1974, pp 180-181. I don't have access to this. - Tues, Feb 3 2009 4:10 am 8 messages , 3 authors http: / / groups. google. com/ group/ sci. logic/ t/ 37267d81361a8538? hl=en The modern mathematical concept of infinity is indefensible - 2 new -------------------- -------------------- -------------------- ------- ...What was misleading and bizarre was your expressing the triviality, that in case of statements that aren't logical truths or falsehoods we can find a way of assigning meaning to the non-logical terms so that the statement comes out true and also so that it comes out false, by saying that the negation of the codification of an important truth - Tues, Feb 3 2009 4:22 am 2 messages , 2 authors http: / / groups. google. com/ group/ sci. logic/ t/ aa23ba5baa7661e6? hl=en having relatively short formal proofs and the class NP - 1 new -------------------- -------------------- -------------------- -- ...True. I think then the P=NP algorithm should then be able to tell us in polynomial time that there is no proof shorter than m for S, where | S| = n and m depends somehow polynomially from n. - Tues, Feb 3 2009 4:29 am 1 message, 1 author http: / / groups. google. com/ group/ sci. logic/ t/ b7d148dca82a9532? hl=en Pet Bed China www. skpetproducts. com China Pet Bed, Pet Bed Manufacturers, China Pet Bed Suppliers - 2 new -------------------- ----------- Dog boots Dog Shoes Pet Pendant Dog Sweater Pet Sweater Pet Charms Pet Jewelry Home » Product Directory » Sporting Goods & Recreation » Pet Supplies » Pet Clothes » Dog Shoes china dog boot Competitive Dog Shoes products from various China Dog Shoes manufacturers and Dog Shoes suppliers are listed below, please view - Tues, Feb 3 2009 4:53 am 2 messages , 2 authors http: / / groups. google. com/ group/ sci. logic/ t/ 5bf0b98c0967af6c? hl=en The modern mathematical concept of infinity is indefensible - 3 new -------------------- -------------------- -------------------- ------- ...The distinction between "expressible" and "representable" is standard, but the definitions of these terms is not. This distinction is not in any apparent way relevant here, whatever definitions one has in mind. George seems to be saying that the usual formalisation of "ZFC is consistent" is somehow incorrect or inadequate, presumably because of - Tues, Feb 3 2009 4:53 am 3 messages , 2 authors http: / / groups. google. com/ group/ sci. logic/ t/ a4594d031c5e13ad? hl=en The modern mathematical concept of infinity is ... - 15 new -------------------- -------------------- ------------------- ... Dik T. Winter schrieb: ... If a b than a = b+1 or a b+1 or, for sure, in another notation: a b a = b+1 or a b+1 So you claim that in the floating-point numbers on a computer (actually discrete quantities and finitely many too), the relation 1.5 1 - Tues, Feb 3 2009 4:54 am 15 messages , 10 authors http: / / groups. google. com/ group/ sci. logic/ t/ bda172b132efb331? hl=en Modal logic: a simple question - 10 new -------------------- ------------------- Hi everybody! I'm studying modal logic and I've a question that probably is simple: I need to prove that □p -- ◊p, also known as axiom D, is not valid in the class of all frames? If you can read correctly all chars it is: box p implies diamond p. I belived that axioms are always valid... but it seems I'm wrong. - Tues, Feb 3 2009 6:50 am 10 messages , 4 authors http: / / groups. google. com/ group/ sci. logic/ t/ 8739254141ee38c0? hl=en Gentzen's hauptsatz - 6 new -------------------- ------- ...Gentzen's Haupsatz, cut-elimination for first-order logic, does not yield consistency of PA. (It is provable already in PRA.) You're thinking of a different result, also due to Gentzen. - Tues, Feb 3 2009 7:01 am 6 messages , 3 authors http: / / groups. google. com/ group/ sci. logic/ t/ 99861138eb68e518? hl=en For All x - 6 new ----------------- ...I was not able to convey my question precisely. One more attempt. Suppose we have a set theory with just one axiom: Ez Ax ~x e z [i.e there is a null set 0] Would every set that contains 0 be a domain for a model of this theory? In particular, would the truth value of Ax x=0 depend on the pre- selected domain? - Tues, Feb 3 2009 7:40 am 6 messages , 3 authors http: / / groups. google. com/ group/ sci. logic/ t/ db7f2bf70003f0c6? hl=en More data definitions of the C variables - 1 new -------------------- -------------------- -------- Where might I find a resolution of the ISO code for pre-lexical variations in the C process? Nothing available from CERN or IEEE definitions. How involved mathematically is such an equation? And does the fwide orientation factor this into the physics? Markov "testing... testing..." - Tues, Feb 3 2009 8:00 am 1 message, 1 author http: / / groups. google. com/ group/ sci. logic/ t/ 6de912e29628be30? hl=en #209 Chapter 7, All Possible Digit Arrangements builds the Reals and Naturals, better than Peano and Dedekind; new book 2nd edition: New True Mathematics - 8 new --- ...I get the idea. ...Aye, there's the rub! Not all entries will correspond to natural numbers. In particular, your string ...999999 (all 9's) is not a natural number. Neither is ...11111 (all 1's), or ...22222 (all 2's), etc. And I'm quite sure you cannot prove (from PA plus suitable + and ^ functions) that - Tues, Feb 3 2009 8:10 am 8 messages , 4 authors http: / / groups. google. com/ group/ sci. logic/ t/ 1a77ed0bacf596b6? hl=en operation terminology for Boolean algebras, logic, set theory, and computer science - 3 new --------------- ...constant zero ...constant one -paul- - Tues, Feb 3 2009 9:23 am 3 messages , 3 authors http: / / groups. google. com/ group/ sci. logic/ t/ c1e9a7beb9a82311? hl=en axiom of cardinality in boolean algebra? - 13 new -------------------- -------------------- --------- Boolean algebra is well known to be algebraic representation of Propositional calculus. However, I'm not certain if I ever came across an axiom that explicitly states that there are only 2 values T and F such as T | F. ( whatever T and F BA expressions might be). In other words, am I right to assume that for BA to be faithful representation of Propositional - Tues, Feb 3 2009 10:45 am 13 messages , 3 authors http: / / groups. google. com/ group/ sci. logic/ t/ 83dfcf92add54204? hl=en Liar paradox (Philosophy Now, Wittgenstein) - 6 new -------------------- -------------------- ----------- ...Yes, idiot. And YOU are an even bigger one. Herb - Tues, Feb 3 2009 11:15 am 6 messages , 4 authors http: / / groups. google. com/ group/ sci. logic/ t/ 61909906042e8993? hl=en Comments on P = NP Proof - 2 new -------------------- ------------ Has anyone looked at this paper? A Polynomial Time Algorithm for 3-SAT [link] I think I read a review that tore it apart and showed several examples of 3SAT instances where this method failed. But, I can't seem to find the article I read. Also, I am looking for relatively small - Tues, Feb 3 2009 1:48 pm 2 messages , 2 authors http: / / groups. google. com/ group/ sci. logic/ t/ 89cba941ed0af9d8? hl=en potential/constant/v ariable confusion - 1 new -------------------- -------------------- ----- ...Not exactly. It doesn't mean "set" AT ALL as far as we're concerned: it is about a set VARIABLE that can take DIFFERENT values. The mathematical entities that WE talk about are, by contrast, CONSTANTS. WE DON'T DO *time*. THEY (the "potential infinity" people) are talking about ONE AND THE SAME SET having MORE members at a LATER time, - Tues, Feb 3 2009 3:34 pm 1 message, 1 author http: / / groups. google. com/ group/ sci. logic/ t/ 31a187d244fa97da? hl=en practical application of Godel's Incompleteness Theorem - 4 new -------------------- -------------------- -------------------- --- Is there any statement S, - other than the Godel statenent for a theory T,- that is provable in T+G(T) but not provable in T? would the statement: S: "G(T) is true but unprovable in T AND 1+1=2" qualify as such a statment? (If there does not exist such an S, then since the only thing that T+G (T) would prove in addition to what T proves would be just G(T) - Tues, Feb 3 2009 3:54 pm 4 messages , 4 authors http: / / groups. google. com/ group/ sci. logic/ t/ cc511618d2da7310? hl=en The modern mathematical concept of infinity is indefensible - 1 new -------------------- -------------------- -------------------- ------- ...Russell's point was that 1,2,3,... is only one possible ordering of the naturals. But yes, there is a "mathematical" reason that 2 is the successor of 1 and the predecessor of 3. However, it has been pointed out to you before that there are other mathematically sound systems that are not inherently based - Tues, Feb 3 2009 3:54 pm 1 message, 1 author http: / / groups. google. com/ group/ sci. logic/ t/ 9d7af6ce70e95e03? hl=en The modern mathematical concept of infinity is indefensible - 1 new -------------------- -------------------- -------------------- ------- ...More correctly, what is indespenable is the study of how human minds create and manipulate abstractions (metaphors) for pretty much everything and anything. Once we discover how a person conceives of a cat, for example, we pretty much know how he also conceives of a dog, a horse, and perhaps all animals in general. - Tues, Feb 3 2009 4:02 pm 1 message, 1 author http: / / groups. google. com/ group/ sci. logic/ t/ 730b7bb3c0cfaaeb? hl=en 2nd order replacement and non-standard models of ZF? - 1 new -------------------- -------------------- -------------------- I'm asking this question on behalf of someone else who wants to know more about it: If one takes a second-order axiom of replacement, one can prove that ZF has non-standard interpretations, as mentioned in Stewart Shapiro's book on second order logic. Can anyone supply an outline on this? Thanks, MoeBlee - Tues, Feb 3 2009 5:39 pm 1 message, 1 author http: / / groups. google. com/ group/ sci. logic/ t/ 9d6a24e03c65547d? hl=en A Modest Proposal - 3 new -------------------- ----- On Feb 3, 3:42 am, stevendaryl3...@yaho o.com (Daryl McCullough) helpfully and politely observed: ...As I have said many times, the simplest way to avoid avoidable confusion, is to avoid using terms used in one context, for similar but essentially different things in another context. ...Exactly so. We can still use "real" when it doesn't make any - Tues, Feb 3 2009 6:45 pm 3 messages , 3 authors http: / / groups. google. com/ group/ sci. logic/ t/ cef400b1973fefc4? hl=en Pet Bed in Car www. skpetproducts. com China Dog Beds Mat Seat in Car Soft Crate pad - 1 new ----------- Pet Bed in Car [link] China Dog Beds Mat Seat in Car Soft Crate pad • When choosing a dog bed, consider your dog's size and choose one that will fit him as an adult. • Consider a dog bed that fits in his crate to make his “home” more comfortable. • When testing the bed filling, it should be springy, not compacted, - Tues, Feb 3 2009 8:02 pm 1 message, 1 author http: / / groups. google. com/ group/ sci. logic/ t/ a8eb3d5997099e24? hl=en PANORAMARE - 2 new ------------------ RETURN FROM TURNEUM FOR TURNIR WITH ALIENS be jealouss: this is good for your feromonial activity; don't you see what you have on your face? Hi! AWESOME's say HI! HELLO! excuse mois pour deranjer, peut etre a c'est dimanche de la fines des toutes crepouscules (twilight), by I want to confesed to you; I'never confess to womens is the most dangerouss, but in these - Tues, Feb 3 2009 9:07 pm 2 messages , 1 author http: / / groups. google. com/ group/ sci. logic/ t/ eb8d9d34e6c10af4? hl=en & 1 Samuel 25v42 - 1 new -------------------- ---- And Abigail hasted, [link] and arose, and rode upon an ass, with five damsels of hers that went after her; and she went after the messengers of David, and became his wife. Please TURN! to page 288 of your king james green covered bible printed with one page printed in korea with me and have a look at this particularly - Wed, Feb 4 2009 12:30 am 1 message, 1 author http: / / groups. google. com/ group/ sci. logic/ t/ 8e8903118aab4f7b? hl=en ==================== ==================== ==================== ================== You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sci.logic" group. To post to this group, send email to sci.l ogic@googlegroups.co m or visit http: / / groups. google. com/ group/ sci. logic? hl=en To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sci.logic+unsub scribe@googlegroups. com To change the way you get mail from this group, visit: http: / / groups. google. com/ group/ sci. logic/ subscribe? hl=en To report abuse, send email explaining the problem to abuse @googlegroups.com ==================== ==================== ==================== ================== Google Groups: http: / / groups. google. com/ ? hl=en Posted by iontudormath at 00:21 0 comments Labels: AWESOME "STEEL GUARDS" COMMANDER BRAND Reactions: AUX REVOIR MEDAME ET MESIEUR, lE SOLEIL BRILLANT SUR LES PAYS DES VERCINGETORIX; PILLIPE LE BEUAX, RETOURNEE TOUTES LE ROYAUME DE FRANCAISE, POUR LES CREDITEUR !!!- HEBREW, IN HIS MODE OF KINGROULE LA FRANCE !!!

NO COMENT:awesome, since 23.nov. 2008, 14-th message after USA president Barack Obama, ELITE BANKERS PLANS, BEFORE GAZA WAR , probable the black hole of D K Matai, IBM Dr., Phylantropist, maybe I made a mistake for his exit cleaning the tracks; perhaps those ATCA- he says, for GLOBALISM began to kill in 2001-2002, founded by him, but probably auto excluded, or reamains under threatness for image of ATCA, and COYOTIES ELITE BANKERS, original message since 23.nov. 2008-by awesome, the 9-th message after president-elect of USA, Mr. Barack Obama: " Mr. president, the importants bankers plan, was the results of almost man, receiving by inspiration, the important message thet you, Mr. OBAMA, will be the future president; this supposed from important bankers, a reaction, to form what D K Matai call an economic black-hole; Why? Because the underground economy using the "methods of Recession(s)" or"Crisis", when the political spheres no EQUALING IN EXPECTETIONS THIS UNDER-BANKING COYOTIES; Well, the war spend money, and for OTHERS make A LOT OF BIGGER MONEY; after my evening today expertise, was already the most CLEAR, IMPORTANT BANKERS, IN SECRETS MESSAGES, RE- DIRECT, and RE- TRASAIE LES CONTOURES DES NEW ECONOMIC POLICY, GLOBAL, THIS TIME. Thats the pure explanation for I was threated and provoked in the time if I write, yesterday on TAGGED somebody threats my kids; Anyway look up the document, from the point of my mouse, 10 min ago collected: " 1. Hank Kroll Vizualizaţi profil Ascundeţi opţiunile 23 Noi 2008, 20:03 De la: Hank Kroll Data: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 10:03:24 -0800 (PST) Local: Dum 23 Noi 2008 20:03 Subiect: Bankers Manifesto Răspundeţi | Răspundeţi autorului | Redirecţionare | Imprimare | Mesaj individual | Arată originalul | Raportaţi acest mesaj | Găsiţi mesajele după acest autor The BANKERS MANIFESTO was distributed to a private group of elite bankers. “We (the bankers) must proceed with caution and guard every move made, for the lower order of the people are already showing signs of restless commotion. Prudence will therefore show a policy of apparently yielding to the popular will until our plans are so far consummated that we can declare our designs without fear of any organized resistance. “The Farmers Alliance and Knights of Labor organizations in the United States should be carefully watched by our trusted men, and we must take immediate steps to control these organizations in our interest or disrupt them. “At the coming Omaha convention to be held July 4, our men must attend and direct its movements, or else there will be set on foot such antagonism to our designs as may require force to overcome. This at the present time would be premature. We are not yet ready for such a crisis. Capitol must protect itself in every possible manner through combination (conspiracy) and legislation. “The courts must be called to our aid, debts must be collected, bonds and mortgages foreclosed as rapidly as possible. “When through the process of law, the common people have lost their homes, they will be more tractable and easily governed through the influence of the strong arm of government applied to a central power of imperial wealth under the control of the leading financiers. People without homes will not quarrel with their leaders. “History repeats itself in regular cycles. This truth is well known among our principal men who are engaged in forming an imperialism of the world. While they are doing this, the people must be kept in a state of political antagonism. “The question of tariff reform must be urged through the organization known as the Democratic Party, and the question of protection with the reciprocity must be forced to view through the Republican Party. “By thus dividing voters, we can get them to expend their energies in fighting over questions of no importance to us, except as teachers to the common herd. Thus by discrete action, we can secure all that has been so generously planned and successfully accomplished.” Dated this third day of March, 1892. The above was reprinted from the book, “Economic Pinch” written by the late Charles A. Lindberg, Sr. which was first published in 1923. The Bankers Manifesto of June 1892 was not intended for public reading, but was propaganda to hold the big bankers together. Permission was not needed to reprint the above as it predates copy write law. How can we learn from history when young people are graduating from government-mandated school systems that cannot read? Our very survival depends on self-education. My book, The Frog is Cooked, filled with historic writings like the above and the Report From Iron Mountain is available at all major book suppliers and my web sites: www. GuardDogBooks. com and www. AlaskaPublishing. com Răspundeţi Răspundeţi autorului Redirecţionare Evaluaţi această postare: Creaţi un grup - Grupuri Google - Pagina de pornire Google - Termenii serviciului - Politica de confidenţialitate ©2009 Google" - iontudormath awesome"

Leave a Message iontudormath December 27, 2008 2:41 am " RECESSIONS AT DEMAND OF UNDERGROUND ECONOMY, WHICH JOKING WITH CAPITAL MARKETS FROM ENTIRE WORLD"- by ION TUDOR "OBAMA GOOD MEASURE CARS, RETAILERS, JOBS, REFOUND, CAPITALIZED MANY CORPORATION"- by ION TUDOR " OBAMA, NOW UNDER THREATNESS OF UNDERGROUND ECONOMY BANKING (NO "COSA NOSTRA")"- by ION TUDOR " FASCISM OF EUROPE PREPARED FOR WAR AGAINST UNDERGROUND ECONOMY&BANKING"- by ION TUDOR Leave a Message iontudormath December 27, 2008 2:23 am "RECESSIONS AT DEMAND" -by ION TUDOR "PLOTING AGAINST WORLD ECONOMY, STATE, PEOPLES, EUROPE FASCIST PREPARING FOR WAR AGAINST UNDERGROUND ECONOMY - WHO GIVE OR RETRAITED CAPITAL, JOKING WIT WHOLE WORLD MARKETS" -by ION TUDOR;Excuse me, iontudormath disturb for : 2) Dr.Matai sir, Yasuhiko Genku Mikura, Cynthia, Liz (I beg you to excuse me for do not know entire name for all), as I told to Dr. DK Matai, sooner, two or many economic systhems level'it i floors like in "Implicate Order"-by David Bohm, apparently unconnected or opposite, have in fact discret links and at the "first economic(like even quantum, in bohmian acception) level"-known in "real world"- are subposed an "like implicate order", structered on minimum two level (existential floor), in acord with our deterministic existential floors, floating on the Ocean of universal indetermination, first attaching with DESTINY, second associeted with FREE WILL- auto cited ION C. TUDOR from articles& in principal from "Mysteries of Time - A Theory of Transcendence", at site "KINGDOM OF TIME" -www.transcendental. gmail.com, URL = http: / / sites. google. com/ site/ mysteriesoftime, please download this book in format.pdf, by right click and 3-rth or 4-rth line left click, last aprox. 30 pages being write in my bad english with Anexe1,2,3,4(Appendi x); Continuing the under levels idea, when bottom levels need money, for ocult offers, to perssons, presidential campaigns or secret services, found migrates from surface to bottom levels -leadership, like: templars- M12-sionists banckers, i. e. in the Top; Top imply ocultated decisions, which induced science trends, religion trends, war trends, at top convenience. 3) About control of population, the survey of individ -you did'n't knew how many data was collected&archived by our humble perssons; threats ceed at two or three threats by death hiself or families- But my tuffer increased proportional with threatness by death(1&half years, adding five years comunists security pressure) at; Exerpting my humble persson, I think mankind will have no time to migrate in space in shuttles, rockets, saucers, Why? Increase speed, must build increasing powerfull engines; that suppose increased durity of shields, artif. grav. A sollution seems to be a vortex in space-time, in my oppinion described in the Anexe 1,3(Appendix) of mentioned book; synergethic solutions could be possible to cumul energies; 4) avoid direct contact by virtual computer with level furnished you services, apparently for nothing; you'll become slaves with ID in order; visit my google page and see an avoiding sign On Tue, Dec 23, 2008 at 12:25 AM, ion tudor wrote: Mr. Dr. Matai, sir, I thanks to you - in the first time - your humble iontudormath - for admited me in HQR, and at least, on "KINGDOM OF TIME" - http: / / sites. google. com/ site/ mysteriesoftime, where I posted "Mysteries of Time -A Theory of Transcendence" -by ION C. TUDOR, is representative in HQR: 1)The small investors are a soubteraine rope, govrned by unknown rules in the normal world -and explination for adaptative reaction is the responding of Holographic principle, and Anexa(Appendix)2, wrote in my bad english, demonstrate this Holographic Principle, functining fractalic, is obviouss the chain of transmition to small investitor; the reciprocal is true even in economy ; the lots of "small"investors lift up through this subtarrain (and is not "cosa nostra") network conducting to the top point7 reversal reaction assured fractalic transmission along this network, functioning like an organism, were the non-locality placed informations are instantaniouss installed in the whole organism; remember me into the next mail, to envolve relativity in my explanations, I hope my answer will be satisffied, Mr.Dr. Matai,sir On Sun, Dec 21, 2008 at 11:24 PM, e c robillard wrote: DK, Cynthia, Yasuhiko and all just a PS to my last post; I've come to my way of thinking after the best part of 35 years in seclusion / isolation due to fear of people and their assumptions, attitudes and cruelty. I've had rather a lot of time to study. If I could do anything now, to help the world, it would be to ensure all children have access to clean water and schools and to teach them -all children- agriculture, philosophy, science and the need for population control. Happy Holidays Elizabeth 2008/12/20 DK Matai Dear Cynthia, Yasuhiko and Liz Thank you for your outstanding comments. Much food for thought and still absorbing. Love DK with family On 20 Dec, 21:52, "Yasuhiko Genku Kimura" wrote: Dear DK: Delusion means "playing false with thought" while illusion means "playing false with perception" (and collusion means collective delusion or illusion). The delusion of wealth therefore is the false thought vis-à-vis what wealth is. Paper money, which originated as bank note or promissory note, is not real wealth, nor are financial instruments that are traded. This confusion of the real and the unreal is the source of the delusion of wealth. Unfortunately there are people in power who exploit this common delusion or collusion to their own advantage. Throughout the course of the current financial meltdown or breakdown, no real wealth has been lost. What is happening is a balancing process of readjustment in the relative valuation of real wealth as exchangeable assets. If the governments resist the temptation of interference in the form of various bail-out schemes, economy will relatively quickly recover and reach normalcy—the balanced equation of wealth/asset and its valuation. As you know, I compared the current economic breakdown with common cold and drug addiction. In terms of the latter, what we are experiencing is a withdrawal syndrome from the addiction of printing (counterfeit) paper money or of inflation. If we can endure the discomfort (in this case extreme discomfort) of this withdrawal syndrome together, we will be fine sooner than later. Thank you for the instructive anecdote from the Mahabharata. Sadly after many centuries of living on this planet we have not evolved much. The delusion/collusion of impermanence continues. You and I can analyze this and write books on the subject, but the fact does not change that humanity at large remains metaphysically asleep. What you and I can do is to be awake and to be an example of wakeful consciousness to the best of our ability and to invite as many people as possible to this open-ended evolutionary journey of awakening and transformation. In friendship, Yasuhiko Genku Kimura ge...@via-visioninac tion.org www. via-visioninaction. org Vision without action is empty. Action without vision is blind. Opinion and ideology divide. Quest and commitment unite. -------------- Original message from DK Matai : -------------- Dear Friends We were asked the other day about why the delusion of wealth persists? For example, ordinary investors watch a Madoff "Ponzi scheme" hedge fund collapse taking USD 50bn into a black hole and many stock market quoted companies lose 99% of their market capitalisation, ie, go from USD 25 bn to less than 500 mn. Yet, ordinary investors feel somehow that they will come good in all of their stock market bets and they diligently commit more funds to speculation on the markets just as -- the pied piper of Omaha -- Warren Buffett utters, "When others are greedy be fearful, and when others are fearful be greedy!" This reminds one of the teachings of The Great Spiritual Masters "On the Impermanence of Life and Wealth" by way of a revealing anecdote from The Mahabharata. The Socratic (truth seeking) dialogue between His Majesty King Yudhishtra and the Celestial Spirit "Yaksha" in the Mahabharata (circa 3,100 BC), one of the greatest Indian epics in Sanskrit, follows in short. The Yaksha -- Celestial Spirit, Guardian of Treasure -- asked King Yudhishtra -- The Wise, Just and Truthful Warrior -- a riddle: "What is the most astonishing thing in the world?" Completely intrepid -- although aware of the wrath of the Yaksha should his answer be wrong -- King Yudhishtra replied: "The strangest thing in the world is that people see others die daily, they even take their relatives to the cemetry, but everyone of them suffers from the delusion that they themselves are going to live for ever! Death is meant only for others!! Yet, the only certainty in life is death! Why do we all suffer from this delusion of our permanence? This is the most astonishing thing in the world." If there can be a lifelong "grand" delusion about such a grave matter -- pun intended! -- the "petit" delusion in regard to the illusion of wealth is neither here nor there! Background According to Indian mythology, the Yakshas are celestial beings -- generally benevolent although prone to fiery temper and total destruction -- bestowed with magical powers, who are the guardians of treasures of the earth and in the cosmos. Kuber is the king of the Yakshas. They make occasional visits to the earth, and jealously guard their privacy and prefer to avoid contact with the mortal beings. Humans, who run into the Yakshas by chance, do so at their own peril, for the Yakshas can be temperamental. These chance encounters may lead to something fortunate, or something unpleasant if not altogether terrible, for the humans often depending upon the latter's ability to provide satisfactory responses to the riddles posed by the Yaksha. Correct responses to the riddles usually involve a logic or wisdom that is typically beyond the reach of most mortal human beings. The phrase "Yaksha-Prashn" literally means questions or riddles posed by a Yaksha, and in the Indian literature, refer to exasperating or insurmountable challenges. [ENDS] We are grateful to all sources for the information presented. We welcome your thoughts, observations and views. Best wishes DK Matai -- ATCA, The Philanthropia, mi2g, HQR -- This is an "ATCA Open and Philanthropia Socratic Dialogue." The "ATCA Open" network on Facebook and LinkedIn is for professionals interested in ATCA's original global aims, working with ATCA step-by- step across the world, or developing tools supporting ATCA's objectives to build a better world. The original ATCA -- Asymmetric Threats Contingency Alliance -- is a philanthropic expert initiative founded in 2001 to resolve complex global challenges through collective Socratic dialogue and joint executive action to build a wisdom based global economy. Adhering to the doctrine of non-violence, ATCA addresses asymmetric threats and social opportunities arising from climate chaos and the environment; radical poverty and microfinance; geo-politics and energy; organised crime & extremism; advanced technologies -- bio, info, nano, robo & AI; demographic skews and resource shortages; pandemics; financial systems and systemic risk; as well as transhumanism and ethics. Present membership of the original ATCA network is by invitation only and has over 5,000 distinguished members from over 120 countries: including 1,000 Parliamentarians; 1,500 Chairmen and CEOs of corporations; 1,000 Heads of NGOs; 750 Directors at Academic Centres of Excellence; 500 Inventors and Original thinkers; as well as 250 Editors-in-Chief of major media. The Philanthropia, founded in 2005, brings together over 1,000 leading individual and private philanthropists, family offices, foundations, private banks, non-governmental organisations and specialist advisors to address complex global challenges such as countering climate chaos, reducing radical poverty and developing global leadership for the younger generation through the appliance of science and technology, leveraging acumen and finance, as well as encouraging collaboration with a strong commitment to ethics. Philanthropia emphasises multi- faith spiritual values: introspection, healthy living and ecology. Philanthropia Targets: Countering climate chaos and carbon neutrality; Eliminating radical poverty -- through micro-credit schemes, empowerment of women and more responsible capitalism; Leadership for the Younger Generation; and Corporate and social responsibility. The original message was received at 2008-12-26 23:03:07 -0500 from postoffice.local [10.0.0.1] ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors ----- -----Transcript of session follows ----- ... while talking to postoffice.local.: RCPT To: ... User unknown Reporting-MTA: dns; postoffice.local Received-From-MTA: DNS; postoffice.local Arrival-Date: 2008-12-26 23:03:07 -0500 Final-Recipient: RFC822; rblan ken@cilc.org Action: failed Status: 5.1.1 Remote-MTA: DNS; postoffice.local Diagnostic-Code: SMTP;550 5.1.1 unknown or illegal alias: rblan ken@cilc.org Last-Attempt-Date: 2008-12-26 23:03:07 -0500 -----Inline Message Follows----- --~--~---------~--~- ---~------------~--- ----~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Web 2.0 Strategies" group. To post to this group, send email to web-2 0-strategies@googleg roups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to web-20-strategies+unsub scribe@googlegroups. com For more options, visit this group at http: / / groups. google. com/ group/ web-20-strategies? hl=en -~----------~----~-- --~----~------~----~ ------~--~--- Seeing the "ARMY"???WHO's ARMY??? confirmed New York TIME, about spies, terorists&Undergroun d Economy lead his farse group to disaster, scientists debating/discuss "ALIEN MATH" or "ALIEN PHYSICS", recorded by OBAMA FAN CLUB's ORDER, on VIDEO&SAVED on MAGNETIC SUPPORTS, confirmed by WHO's WHO?, DK Matai, so-called Dr. from IBM, full PhD DK Matai, by holis tic-quantum-relativi ty-hqr@groups.google .com, PHYLANTROPIST, AWARDED, WALKED by QUEEN through BUCKINGAM PALACE& whole important points of LONDON, RUN LIKE HELL - HEARD ABOUT THE UNDERGROUND ECONOMY PUSHED ALL UNDER SIONIST, LEADING MAJESTIC 12, SIONISTS LEADER BANKING, IN PARALELL WE DISCOVER INTENSE ANTISEMIT ACTIVITY, IN MANY IMPORTANT CENTERS, PREPARING FOR WAR- Administrator of OBAMA FAN CLUB's ORDER INFORM EMERGENCY WORLD LEVEL : 1) RED ALLERT FOR: UN, USA, RUSSIA, EU, CHINA; 2) INFORM PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA BY MULTIPLES& VARIOUSS THREATNESS; iontu dormath@gmail.com THE UNDERGRUND ECONOMY LEAD YOUR BANKING; YOUR MONEY RESOURCESS; AT it COMAND, HIDDEN ECONOMY, ORDER TO BANCKERS, MONETARY POLITICS; THIS THING INFLUENCES, OUR ON- GROUND ECONOMY, AND OBAMA TEAM for OBAMA FA CLUB's ORDER, discover this PLOTING AGAINST THE HUMANITY; THE UNDERGROUNG ECONOMY is NOT "COSA NOSTRA !!! "; find out into memory; never dealed with a SITE under ANONIMATE UMBRELA? ON THIS FOUND EUROPE, BOILLED IN FASCISM, by Majestc 12, PLAN TO BEGIN THE WAR AGAINST BANDITS WITH YOUR HANDS IN YOURS POCKETS& STORES OR WOMEN's PORT- MONEY or CREDIT CARD --~--~---------~--~- ---~------------~--- ----~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Web 2.0 Strategies" group. To post to this group, send email to web-2 0-strategies@googleg roups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to web-20-strategies+unsub scribe@googlegroups. com For more options, visit this group at http: / / groups. google. com/ group/ web-20-strategies? hl=en -~----------~----~-- --~----~------~----~ ------~--~--- --~--~---------~--~- ---~------------~--- ----~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Holistic Quantum Relativity (HQR)" group. 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there are no phenomena requiring FLT/travel-in-time, than Hard SF novels; see Heinlein's very last book! these "other people" or creatures will just have to communicate, using physics that are known to us. unfortunately, these folks like Ed Mithcell, a 33rd degree Freemason supposedly, as told by one of the Face and Genitals on Mars gorupoid, have a difficult deal of simply recalling, what occured during their landings. obviously, this is because it was such an all-out weird/high experience, although certainly akin to swimming in a drysuit, without the hydraulics ... but these Moon Architecture folks, think it was because they were debriefed/hypnotized /whatever. now, they also partake of a simple theory, that we, oiurselves have been "out there" in the far past, and possibly in the recent past, with a side-trip to Roswell, which is really just an airf0rce base "with some cache from WW2" -- *that* is the real "cover-up," more in the way of simple denial. however, there really apparently was quite a bit of occult goings-on around Apollo, which seemed to have to do with the accident on Apollo One; they have this written-up. I do no deny that there really could be a glass dome on Moon -- if you can really see that in their photos, which I cannot -- but I argue that they could very easily be natural bubbles of magma. and so forth. like the 911truth folks, they do find interesting anomalies, that invite explanatioj; they just never really try to, unless it involves Trickier Dick Cheeny! thus: Keizer weems to have reputable publications in the literature, but I see viturally nothing on your webblog. it is certainly news to me, that Dirac was a reductionist, or that he "solved the periodical table with his mechanics," wrongly or not; how do *you* account for the allegedly missing antimatter? there is nothing wrong with the theory of strings, in spite of the recent booklength diatribes from PI dans Quebec equalment trois, that is not already a connundrum in Kaluza-Klein theory in 5D -- and, that was due solely to Klein's interpretation of "the math." as for any "time paradox," it only exists in "hard SF" and the nonsequiter of "travel in time;" travel *requires* time, or it's just dreamtime. make-up your own sort of five-dimensional (or "4+1 D.") spaces, and *then* bitch about canonicals. The new approach is free of the so-called «time paradox», modeling Nature --http: / / www. canonicalscience. org/ thus: Darfur, which is about 100 per cent Muslim, and is on the encroahing end of the Sahara, called Sahel -- see my sigfile! in places where nationalism isnt popular thus: yeah, or a "hyperpoint," or a hypoplane? is a line segment the closed convex hull of a finite set in R? thus: you should study the brachistochrone of Liebniz, Bornoulli, Huygens, Fermat et al, because it is all downhill from "Forsooth, I have got a formula." just because I reply, does not mean that I believe that you are in any way serious or sincere. if you insist, the Copenhagenschool parody of Schroedinger's Headgasket is not the sine qua non plus ultra of "existential predeterminacy," mod Heisenberg's, may be I'll just laugh & quit this thread. I am not the least practiced in Liebniz' calculus, but I can still not pretend that you are, either, based upon your limpwristed premonition of fuzzy logic. now, if the "space deforms according the existential function, f, or the integral, F," you would still have to do some math and establish this mysterious operator. all mathematical objects are ideals; one reifies the math at one's own peril -- or the general laughter of the Peanut Gallery. It would be very easy to calculate relativistic corrections using existential indeterminacy. It is an almost elementary exercise, as is the precession of planetary perihelions. These things become very easy to calculate. --only 24 hours to impeach Trickier Dick from the N.Admin, metaphorically typing, or Cheeny & Zbiggy, fo'mo' years; Good Morning, Afghanistan! ... Good Afternoon, Sudan! http: / / tarpley. net/ bush12. htm http: / / wlym. com/ campaigner/ 8011. pdf -- Brits hate Shakes, Why? http: / / www. wlym. com/ ~seattle/ dynamis/ http: / / www. 21stcenturysciencete ch. com/ current. html http: / / www. rwgrayprojects. com/ synergetics/ plates/ plates. html http: / / mathdl. maa. org/ mathDL/ 46/ ? pa=content& sa=viewDocument& nodeId=3163 http: / / wlym. com/ campaigner/ 8011. pdf Răspundeţi Răspundeţi autorului Redirecţionare 26. LudovicoVan Vizualizaţi profil Mai multe opţiuni 24 Dec, 09:36 On 24 Dec, 05:33, spudnik wrote: these "other people" or creatures will just have to communicate, using physics that are known to us. Sure, unless they happen to meet you first. Alien: "Peace. My name equals Alienz." Spudnik: "Good Morning, Afghanistan!" -LV Răspundeţi Răspundeţi autorului Redirecţionare 27. David Bernier spudnik wrote: there are no phenomena requiring FLT/travel-in-time, than Hard SF novels; see Heinlein's very last book! these "other people" or creatures will just have to communicate, using physics that are known to us. unfortunately, these folks like Ed Mithcell, a 33rd degree Freemason supposedly, as told by one of the Face and Genitals on Mars gorupoid, have a difficult deal of simply recalling, what occured during their landings. obviously, this is because it was such an all-out weird/high experience, although certainly akin to swimming in a drysuit, without the hydraulics ... but these Moon Architecture folks, think it was because they were debriefed/hypnotized /whatever. About physics, around 1890-1905, there was a real dispute between physicists/astronome rs and geologists about the age of the earth. At the end of the 1800's, some physicists or mathematical physicists calculated that the sun could not shine for 100 million, 200 M, ... 500 million years [roughly]. As a result, they thought the geologists were wrong about the minimum age of the earth. This is discussed in a chapter of a book on science by Henri Poincaré. Later, with atomic and H-bombs, there was proof that there was more to physics than gravity and electromagnetism: e.g. nuclear physics and fusion reactions; that's now the accepted explanation for the sun shining for billions of years. The video below could be a fake event, lunatics, a hoax "disclosure" from the CIA by real CIA agents, a CGI film made with a cluster of supercomputers, etc. etc. http: / / www. youtube. com/ watch? v=7vyVe-6YdUk but it's good entertainment... David Bernier 24 Dec, 12:56 28. Jon Slaughter Vizualizaţi profil Mai multe opţiuni 24 Dec, 11:06 "LudovicoVan" wrote in message news:ef53a 3ab-8dcd-4ec6-8b4e-7 46681e999f6@x16g2000 prn.googlegroups.com ... - Afişare text în citat - That is different. We are talking about the ability to communicate and not the need. We do not know if a super intelligent species will have the need to communicate with us or not. If we use our own experiences we would say yes because we try to communicate with lower life forms... we do this to learn for our own survival. In some sense if the species is super intelligent we would expect them to have some desire to learn and hence understand that even lower life forms offer something in some way. No matter how long a lion and a squid try to communicate it is doubtful that they ever will. A lion and a squid would not even try to communicate, unless you consider the basic life and death game of nature a form of communication in itself. Indeed all living beings do have a language, more or less sophisticated that it is (and despite the level of awareness we might have about it). but history says otherwise. If what you are saying is true we would expect there to be more species communicating with each other on our own planet. After all, nothing about humans should be special... except we are by far the most intelligent and infact our technology is what distinguishes us. This woulod seem to say that what makes humans special also would distinguish other intelligent species. This is not sufficient or necessary but seems probable. (my point here is that whatever processes by which we exist are not necessarily special and similar processes would be played out in other species. Of course there are many confounding factors involved but the underlying principles, just like the physical laws, still exist... because after all it is all physical.) Intelligence and knowledge is a key factor here. As I am trying to say, the key factor to mutual understanding is rather motivational or intentional: you just cannot embed meaning into a syntax. But we are not talking about motivations but possibilities. Motiviation depend on many factures and would not be a general property of an intelligent race. We might expect super intelligent beings not to want to have anything to do with less intelligent beings but again, we know this is not the case from our own experiences and I doubt that we would be special in this regard. We know from history that two "disjoint" civilizations can establish communications because it has been done many times. What we know from history and then anthropology and sociology is that, when two civilisations get in contact, there is a mutual process of absorption that is *socio-culturally driven*: that is, all motivations are socio-cultural, surely nothing "unmotivated" or neutral here. Again, motivation is something entirely different and depends on each individual case. We were talking about the ability to communicate and not the need. It involves language and language can be taught. What I am saying is that you can surely teach a calculus, but you cannot really teach a *meaning* unless, there *already* is a common "motivational" base, or "common world". An enabler is not a driver. The meaning is common. This is what I mean by the common physical laws that govern all beings(I take this as an axiom) and that these laws are inherent in every being. Since these laws are common and fundamental they setup a common bases for communication. e.g., Suppose you meet some alien and you are trying to communicate with him. He is an intelligent being. He is not terribly different from you(because he lives in the same physical world and must abide by the same physical laws). You try to communicate. For communicate to be feesible you must have analogous understandings to work with. But simply because you abide by the same physical laws you have an infinite amount of common understanding. (remember, both are intelligent) It is not to say it is easy or will always work but that it is possible. That is all. Maybe most alien races, if they exist, would only kill other civilizations or not both to communicate. But this is different. The point here is that any advanced race must be similar to ours in many respects. It might be possible that some creatures would have developed in such a completely different manner that we could not communicate with them at all but then one has to wonder how they could become intelligent in the first place. (if, say they had no senses for the physical world, then how could they become intelligent?) So, basically you have 1. Alien race is intelligent enough to communicate with us. 2. We are intelligent enough to communicate with them. 3. Neither race is intelligent enough. and here what ties it all together is logic which, as already stated, is tied into the physical laws. (i.e., intelligence is a measure of logical complexity and knowledge) So, basically, you are just ignoring the distinction I have tried to make, that sharing a math does not entail sharing a knowledge or meaning, as the latter are rather related to the non-mathematical aspects of our intelligence. ? I think we are talking about two different things. I am talking about the likelyhood that an intelligent alien race could communicate with us while you seem to be talking about why they would. My argument is that the physical laws restrict the possibilities on the evolution of an intelligent race and that they must evolve within certian logical constraints. These contraints will naturally allow them to communicate with us. The OP asked if it "but math is vast and surely not all of them are "natural", "inevitable", or "unavoidable"" I kinda gotta off into communications since he mentioned signals so I could be wrong in the "communications" thing but I do believe this is what he was implying. His question, IMO, was "Can we communicate with aliens or would they be so drastically different that we couldn't understand them". Say the aliens were just humans too, just like us. Would there be any problems? Doubful. They could easily communicate with us... specially if they spoke english. Now I am trying to say that because of the confinements of logic, which are derived from the physical world, they could not have evolved to drastically from us to make it impossible to communicate with. (they might physically have evolved that "looks" different. Or have a different culture... but in many regards there would be a lot of similarities) For example. Think of a race of one being that was super intelligent but had no ability to sense the world. Some how it just exists. It has no ability to communicate with us and we cannot understand it. It is useless and as far as we are concerned it is not intelligent even though it might be able to solve all the unsolved math problems in a second for us. Communication is and will always be the most important intellectual aspect of humanity. If something cannot communicate it is not intelligent. Hence by deduction, an intelligent alien race must be able to communicate. If it can communicate then it has the ability to communicate with us. Not that it can or will but that it has the capacity to communicate. There to many factors involved to say that any arbitrary case will work. My argument goes as: Intelligent race = communications = capacity to communicate with us. It's almost a tautology. I'm implicity using the argument that if a race has the ability to communicate with itself intelligently that it must have evolved along a similar path as us which makes easier to communicate with us. (in some sense the american indians were "alien" to the europeans at the time but because they were "similar" they had the ability to communicate and did communicate. (in fact there are no humans, AFAIK that do not have some form of intra-species ability to ... citiţi mai multe » Răspundeţi Răspundeţi autorului Redirecţionare 29. LudovicoVan Vizualizaţi profil Mai multe opţiuni 24 Dec, 12:07 On 24 Dec, 09:06, "Jon Slaughter" wrote: "LudovicoVan" wrote in message news:ef53a 3ab-8dcd-4ec6-8b4e-7 46681e999f6@x16g2000 prn.googlegroups.com ... On 24 Dec, 03:21, "Jon Slaughter" wrote: "LudovicoVan" wrote in message news:3030e cbe-a5a5-4770-9895-0 c0360e697d9@p2g2000p rn.googlegroups.com< /a>... Sure, it is implicitly assumed that one has enough time and knowledge to establish mutual understanding. That is true provided that both parties are willing to establish mutual understanding. But there is no need for any being to be *willing* so in order to be "intelligent". That is different. We are talking about the ability to communicate and not the need. Who said "need"? I was referring to intentionality, and the fact that a message by itself means anything and nothing: it is you, the recipient, who make sense of it. If I nod, it means "yes"; but if I nod on the other emisphere, it very likely means "no". The meaning we attach to symbols is a socio-cultural fact. To translate the hieroglyphs they needed an intermediate language (the Rosetta stone). A system of signs surely follows the one universal physics, still it is never enough by itself to determine a meaning. We do not know if a super intelligent species will have the need to communicate with us or not. ... This is psychology, not logic, and also a very low level one... we are by far the most intelligent and infact our technology is what distinguishes us. Ah, the yankee myth. after all it is all physical Maybe so, maybe there are basic things like life and death that we must have in common with any species in our universe, so that ultimately a common ground for understanding there must exist. My point is only that the potential differences are by far more huge than just conjuring a communication system, because meaning is simply not reducible to a mechanical process. There is no automatic translator. Intelligence and knowledge is a key factor here. As I am trying to say, the key factor to mutual understanding is rather motivational or intentional: you just cannot embed meaning into a syntax. But we are not talking about motivations but possibilities. Then we are maybe talking about the same thing, as I am surely not trying any phsicology. We know from history that two "disjoint" civilizations can establish communications because it has been done many times. What we know from history and then anthropology and sociology is that, when two civilisations get in contact, there is a mutual process of absorption that is *socio-culturally driven*: that is, all motivations are socio-cultural, surely nothing "unmotivated" or neutral here. Again, motivation is something entirely different and depends on each individual case. We were talking about the ability to communicate and not the need. I didn't mention needs either: I hope my usage of the term "motivation" is now a bit clearer. Again, what I am saying is that our "ability to communicate" does not reduce to finding a proper channel, the material language. It depends on more subjective (although mostly socio-cultural) "faculties", that simply do not reduce to any math: they are "uncomputable", if you like, at least to our knowledge so far. It involves language and language can be taught. What I am saying is that you can surely teach a calculus, but you cannot really teach a *meaning* unless, there *already* is a common "motivational" base, or "common world". An enabler is not a driver. The meaning is common. That's indeed what is *not* common, unless we happen to be very familiar one another, and even in that case, you can never really tell you know anybody else; not even yourself sometimes. This is what I mean by the common physical laws that govern all beings(I take this as an axiom) and that these laws are inherent in every being. Since these laws are common and fundamental they setup a common bases for communication. You are making confusion between two distinct levels: the channel and the meaning, the physical and the intellectual. Intelligence is not a machine, for all we know. simply because you abide by the same physical laws you have an infinite amount of common understanding. (remember, both are intelligent) Non sequitur. The point here is that any advanced race must be similar to ours in many respects. You can't even claim to know your nearest brother. ? I think we are talking about two different things. I am talking about the likelyhood that an intelligent alien race could communicate with us while you seem to be talking about why they would. There is the feasibility of a communication happening, on a side, the plausibility of an understanding happening, on another. My argument is that the physical laws restrict the possibilities on the evolution of an intelligent race and that they must evolve within certian logical constraints. These contraints will naturally allow them to communicate with us. The constraints that are relevant to a mutual understanding have very little to nothing to do with physical laws. Again: a common physical base (i.e. belonging to the same "world") assures the possibility of a communication (a contact), not of a mutual understanding. Understanding (and intelligence, knowledge, etc.) belong to the socio- cultural sphere, they cannot be reduced neither to math nor to technology, etc. His question, IMO, was "Can we communicate with aliens or would they be so drastically different that we couldn't understand them". I too am interpreting it that way, and to that I am answering. It is quite plausible that the aliens would result at least as "strange" as we use to find any "stranger", and actually many times so. Say the aliens were just humans too, just like us. Would there be any problems? Doubful. Again: try to get what's passing in the mind of your neighbour... Now I am trying to say that because of the confinements of logic, which are derived from the physical world, You are using "logic" here in a very restricted sense. Understanding, knowledge, etc. are just another matter. My argument goes as... Your argument is not even wrong. -LV Răspundeţi Răspundeţi autorului Redirecţionare Creaţi un grup - Grupuri Google - Pagina de pornire Google - Termenii serviciului - Politica de confidenţialitate ©2008 Google